I’ve often wondered from an engineering standpoint where all of the material inside the tunnels, a rather large volume, was deposited undetected by the IDF.
Learning about the MIT campus construction project from my undergraduate and graduate days leaves me with even more questions.
The Institute purchased 55 acres of uncertain land along the Charles River.
The fill was acquired—from dredging the Charles River and digging the subway. The dirt, sand, and clay are layered beneath the MIT campus, affecting buildings differently.
Manpower, stiff-legged derricks, a railroad, and mixing concrete right on the site are reasons for wondrous efficiency.
However, the campus construction was not required to be accomplished in secrecy in order to avoid aerial and acoustical observation devices.
The Gaza tunnels network was not only constructed but somehow not monitored?
"Hamas, the governing authority in the Gaza Strip, has constructed a sophisticated network of military tunnels since it seized control of the Strip in 2007. The tunnel system branches beneath many Gazan towns and cities, such as Khan Yunis, Jabalia and the Shati refugee camp.[1] The internal tunnels, running some dozens of kilometres within the Gaza Strip,[2] have several functions. Hamas uses the tunnels to hide its arsenal of rocketry underground, to facilitate communication, to permit munition stocks to be hidden, and to conceal militants, making detection from the air difficult.
......
Strategic objectives
According to Eado Hecht, an Israeli defence analyst specialising in underground warfare, "Three different kinds of tunnels existed beneath Gaza, smuggling tunnels between Gaza and Egypt; defensive tunnels inside Gaza, used for command centres and weapons storage; and –connected to the defensive tunnels –offensive tunnels used for cross-border attacks on Israel", including the capture of Israeli soldiers.[21][31] Palestinian military personnel in Gaza explained to news Web site al-Monitor that the purpose of a cross-border tunnel was to conduct operations behind enemy lines in the event of an Israeli operation against Gaza.[32] A Palestinian militia document obtained by al-Monitor and also published in The Washington Post described the objectives of the under-border tunnels:
The tunnel war is one of the most important and most dangerous military tactics in the face of the Israeli army because it features a qualitative and strategic dimension, because of its human and moral effects, and because of its serious threat and unprecedented challenge to the Israeli military machine, which is heavily armed and follows security doctrines involving protection measures and preemption. ... [The tactic is] to surprise the enemy and strike it a deadly blow that doesn't allow a chance for survival or escape or allow him a chance to confront and defend itself.[32][33]"
Your post begins: "Digging a massive underground city of tunnels requires hiding or disposing of a massive amount of dirt. How did Hamas manage to accomplish this without "Israeli intelligence" knowing about it immediately?"
Since no one ever pretended those tunnels didn't exist, and in fact they were public knowledge, and even had an entire Wikipedia page with dozens of footnotes *before* Oct 7th, your entire argument collapses. If anything, the question is why Israel didn't go in *earlier.*
The argument was simply that there was no reason to ever pretend they didn't know precisely where the tunnels were (not merely that they existed) and that people needed to be sent into death traps to find and destroy them.
You're trying way too hard to score some kind of point, merely because you can't allow yourself to explore malicious intentions and actual collaboration. That's a you problem, and niggling with me like this won't help.
"The argument was simply that there was no reason to ever pretend they didn't know precisely where the tunnels were (not merely that they existed) and that people needed to be sent into death traps to find and destroy them."
1) that *wasn't* the argument. I quoted your original post. 2) your *new* argument isn't good either. There's no great mystery why they had to go into the tunnels.
"You're trying way too hard to score some kind of point, merely because you can't allow yourself to explore malicious intentions and actual collaboration."
I’ve often wondered from an engineering standpoint where all of the material inside the tunnels, a rather large volume, was deposited undetected by the IDF.
Learning about the MIT campus construction project from my undergraduate and graduate days leaves me with even more questions.
The Institute purchased 55 acres of uncertain land along the Charles River.
The fill was acquired—from dredging the Charles River and digging the subway. The dirt, sand, and clay are layered beneath the MIT campus, affecting buildings differently.
Manpower, stiff-legged derricks, a railroad, and mixing concrete right on the site are reasons for wondrous efficiency.
However, the campus construction was not required to be accomplished in secrecy in order to avoid aerial and acoustical observation devices.
The Gaza tunnels network was not only constructed but somehow not monitored?
It wasn't a secret before Oct 7th that Hamas had tunnels. Here's a link to the the Wikipedia page about them as it existed in April 2023:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip&oldid=1147951915
"Hamas, the governing authority in the Gaza Strip, has constructed a sophisticated network of military tunnels since it seized control of the Strip in 2007. The tunnel system branches beneath many Gazan towns and cities, such as Khan Yunis, Jabalia and the Shati refugee camp.[1] The internal tunnels, running some dozens of kilometres within the Gaza Strip,[2] have several functions. Hamas uses the tunnels to hide its arsenal of rocketry underground, to facilitate communication, to permit munition stocks to be hidden, and to conceal militants, making detection from the air difficult.
......
Strategic objectives
According to Eado Hecht, an Israeli defence analyst specialising in underground warfare, "Three different kinds of tunnels existed beneath Gaza, smuggling tunnels between Gaza and Egypt; defensive tunnels inside Gaza, used for command centres and weapons storage; and –connected to the defensive tunnels –offensive tunnels used for cross-border attacks on Israel", including the capture of Israeli soldiers.[21][31] Palestinian military personnel in Gaza explained to news Web site al-Monitor that the purpose of a cross-border tunnel was to conduct operations behind enemy lines in the event of an Israeli operation against Gaza.[32] A Palestinian militia document obtained by al-Monitor and also published in The Washington Post described the objectives of the under-border tunnels:
The tunnel war is one of the most important and most dangerous military tactics in the face of the Israeli army because it features a qualitative and strategic dimension, because of its human and moral effects, and because of its serious threat and unprecedented challenge to the Israeli military machine, which is heavily armed and follows security doctrines involving protection measures and preemption. ... [The tactic is] to surprise the enemy and strike it a deadly blow that doesn't allow a chance for survival or escape or allow him a chance to confront and defend itself.[32][33]"
Of course. The point is there should have been no reason to send Dati Leumi sacrificial lambs into death traps to locate them.
Your post begins: "Digging a massive underground city of tunnels requires hiding or disposing of a massive amount of dirt. How did Hamas manage to accomplish this without "Israeli intelligence" knowing about it immediately?"
Since no one ever pretended those tunnels didn't exist, and in fact they were public knowledge, and even had an entire Wikipedia page with dozens of footnotes *before* Oct 7th, your entire argument collapses. If anything, the question is why Israel didn't go in *earlier.*
The argument was simply that there was no reason to ever pretend they didn't know precisely where the tunnels were (not merely that they existed) and that people needed to be sent into death traps to find and destroy them.
You're trying way too hard to score some kind of point, merely because you can't allow yourself to explore malicious intentions and actual collaboration. That's a you problem, and niggling with me like this won't help.
"The argument was simply that there was no reason to ever pretend they didn't know precisely where the tunnels were (not merely that they existed) and that people needed to be sent into death traps to find and destroy them."
1) that *wasn't* the argument. I quoted your original post. 2) your *new* argument isn't good either. There's no great mystery why they had to go into the tunnels.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/can-israel-take-out-tunnels-hamas-uses-move-fighters-weapons-rcna120315
"You're trying way too hard to score some kind of point, merely because you can't allow yourself to explore malicious intentions and actual collaboration."
Nah. I just don't think you're saying anything convincing. Claiming that hostages are crisis actors and Israel is cooperating with Hamas is roughly equivalent to claiming that chabad was running a pedophile ring in 770. https://www.adl.org/resources/article/tunnel-discovered-under-chabad-headquarters-sparks-antisemitic-firestorm-online
You're just trolling and not contributing anything worthwhile. Go back to your blog.
Well now ….
Used it on site to make the concrete walls.
No. Everyone knows the concrete came from the Erev Rav who run Israel. That's always been out in the open.
Do you listen to Rabbi Alon Anava, Chanaya? He calls the Israeli government the erev rav too.
Thats just great. Perfect.
The cement, yes.